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  • djwhiterabbit_oc
    Posts: 41
    Joined: May 7th, 2008, 07:19
    Memory Nightmare
    1. 32bit logic does not have enough internal memory to run even fairly modest 3rd party libraries/plug-ins. 2. therefore logic would have to become 64bit which is NOT going to happen for many VERY good reasons, or else the 3rd party plug-ins will have to use the same mmap trick as the exs24. 3. the mmap functionality requires a certain amount of internal logic memory to make work. this severely curtails the amount of memory you have for your 3rd party stuff, which is why reducing your physical RAM could actually increase how much you have available for logic. the amount of memory logic sets aside to run mmap is set in your plist file. even a fairly low level programmer could adjust this. i have had mine adjusted and it has made a huge difference. 4. the only real solution for those who are working with a fair amount of 3rd party stuff is to use an AU host. this really is not the end of the world and actually brings its own benefits. in this case a 32bit au host has its own 4 Gb memory space which makes far better use of your systems RAM. 5. logic is much more stable close to its memory limits than it ever has been before, but it reaches the limit far sooner because of the 512 Mb set aside to run mmap. i stress, if you are running close to the memory limit you need to consider another AU host. 6. it absolutely has nothing to do with computer model, intel vs PPC, or whether your RAM is paired, coloured purple or has furry dice hanging off of it. it is all to do with the internal RAM address space limitation with logic. some further thoughts: - generally if you get the unable to save message, it may save anyway. look for the file with a tilda ( ~ ) after it. - there are many features in logic which have not been thought all the way through; file management, communication with other DAWs, beat mapping, working with video, the library drawer, score editing, and finally mmap. mmap was clearly meant to address the problem of working with large libraries and is partially a good solution. but the reality is, most modern sound libraries are only available for 3rd parties plug-ins and not available for the exs. missing this point makes the mmap virtually a redundant feature - how can you miss it? simply saying its up to the 3rd party manufacturers to sort out is not helpful to the poor user who is wondering why their expensive macpro with a gazillion gigabytes of RAM falls over sooner and runs no faster than their old coal-powered G5. having spoken to very smart programmers not related to logic development (that i know of) there are a myriad ways of exploiting RAM on your system and certain advantages at least in the short term to remaining a 32bit application. logic developers have not thought all the way through the problem of running large libraries and this annoys me somewhat. an integrated secondary hosting program such as RAX or plogue bidule, created by the logic developers would be much easier and more efficient to manage, more tightly integrated and would make a lot more sense than an obscure programming trick that they didn't even announce when it came out. a big problem of running combined libraries is that when switching songs, the 3rd party samples have to be reloaded. keeping them in plogue bidule running in rewire, means that switching songs takes a fraction of the time it used. the technology exists for logic to run a secondary application very easily and would have been a far more practical and obvious solution than the one they came up with, because the situation as we have it means that people get burned all the time as they come against the memory wall.
    Reply
  • Rounik Admin
    Posts: 8713
    Joined: Dec 16th, 2006, 08:13
    Re: Memory Nightmare
    Hi djwhiterabbit, Interesting post! 1. Which "modest" software libraries/plug-ins are you talking about? 2. So, you think that when 64bit Snow Leopard hits the scene, Logic 8.1/9 won't be 64bit? 3/4/5. Interesting... 6. so I should take the furry dice off my Ram then? I think when the Snow Leopard arrives this year, Logic will need to have, at least, an incremental update... what that update will bring - nobody knows yet. ...Now I heard somewhere on the grapevine that Apple are holding an event on the 24th March 09.... hmmmm.
    Reply
  • djwhiterabbit_oc
    Posts: 41
    Joined: May 7th, 2008, 07:19
    Re: Memory Nightmare
    I have a new Mac Pro 8 Core system which has 32GB of Ram installed. Everything has been great, until now when I start getting these memory errors also. I use mainly all software synths, EXS24 with its Virtual Memory turned on, Komplete 5 with the along with all the others, Rob Pappen, Re FX etc etc. When i open my projects, its already using 3.3GB of VM. If I do a simple save (before even playing through or recording any midi or loading any more synths) the VM jumps up to 3.6 another save pushes it to 3.8 and then 1 more save pushes it to 3.99GB where it crashes. Is there not a way to increase the VM or is logic only capable of addressing up to 4GB? Why doesnt it use Real memory first? As when it crashes it says its only addressing 2.17GB of 'Real Memory'?
    Reply
  • djwhiterabbit_oc
    Posts: 41
    Joined: May 7th, 2008, 07:19
    Re: Memory Nightmare
    Info for Apple News | Apple Event Scheduled for March 24th? http://www.iclarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=3106
    Reply
  • Zihymua
    Posts: 206
    Joined: Oct 30th, 2007, 04:46
    Re: Memory Nightmare
    When you tried to figured out Snow Leopard and tell everybody they have to keep Logic in 32bits to have it run, hum, i dont know how long you work with a Mac, me i remember when we switch from OS9 Classic to OSX Apple give us a transition app to permit other third party to be able to work, to give them the time to upgrade, this will be the same for OSX Leopard to Snow. First point Snow Leopard it is not for new features but only for OSX stabilisation and the most important point this new OSX received a new app call Grand Central and this is the major improvement for Snow, go on Apple site they explained a little bit what will be Grand Central app. PS The good third partie company already have the beta version of Snow for almost a year, to be up to date
    Reply
  • Ben
    Posts: 113
    Joined: Nov 13th, 2008, 11:23
    Re: Memory Nightmare
    djwhiterabbit_oc, Thank you for your post. I have a Mac Pro 8 Core with only 4GB of Ram. Snow Leopard and Logic Studio 9 installed. I'm running Komplete 5 and other CPU demanding 3rd party plugins. I am thinking of getting more RAM, but as you write I am not so sure that getting more RAM will have a lot of effect on the stability of my system. Could you please explain point 3 in more details? what plist file have you edited, where is it located and what was changed? Do you mean that you can tell logic to use more virtual memory by adjusting the value in the plist? This is very important to me as Logic does crash on me regularly. As for point 4 - are you telling me that Logic can only load 4 GB of RAM?! or is this something that now got solved with Logic 9 or Snow Leopard? Point 5 - What IS the emory limit of Logic 9? are you talking about virtual memory or physical memory? Are you saying that in order to use more than 4GB of RAM one needs to run a AU host program every time you need another 4GB of ram? I can imagine those instances cannot be the same application, so you need to install several AU hosts? So one way or the other, Logic loads too much into virtual memory and there's nothing we can do about it? and on top as soon as it reaches a limit (and it reaches it very quickly) it crashes? :::::::THE CPU MYSTERY AND GCD I bought snow leopard for one reason only, I understood that Grand central Dispatch was going to evenly spread the load on the CPU to all cores in my computer. Well, I have snow leopard and I still spike on just one core. I also have Kontakt 3.5 in which you can set how many cores you have so that it does more or less the same thing that GCD is supposed to do. Do I feel ANY difference? no. i only use Kontakt as a sampler and rarely add effects, so it's pointless, right? Is it that Logic 9 is simply not written for the GCD technology and that's why it keeps on using only one core to do most processing? All this technlogy and updates, all this money spent, all the promises and nothing really changes?
    Reply
  • Zihymua
    Posts: 206
    Joined: Oct 30th, 2007, 04:46
    Re: Memory Nightmare
    I am sorry for you but i believe that was Native products who give me some problems so i decided to update my Kontak 3.5 to Kontak 4 and wow almost all my misery goes away, and like everybody we wait from Apple to update Logic 9 to be full 64 bits and all we will be in Heaven. Soon Snow will be stabilized Apple will go further with all our Pro app Be patient and if you can afford it add 8G memory in your system mine first was running 16G and now 32G crazy running
    Reply
  • Ben
    Posts: 113
    Joined: Nov 13th, 2008, 11:23
    Re: Memory Nightmare
    I just got the phone talking to a Apple support for Logic. Summary: Snow Leopard is a 64bit OS that supports 32bit applications GCD is a wonderful thing but only made for 64bit apps. Logic 9 is 32bit and will probably only be released as 64bit when it turns 10. (The reason for the long delay in releasing it is due to the fact that not all users have snow leopard installed. So they want to take out Logic 64bit only when the market is ready for it) The 4GB RAM limit applies to Logic 9 and any other 32bit application, whether on Mac or PC (right?) I am going to use the AU host solution that djwhiterabbit_oc (long user name) suggested and thank you for bringing it up. Last thin left to discuss here is the virtual memory issue. What exactly did you change in the plist file. What plist file was it? where is it? Would it cause Logic to become unstable? What exactly does it do? Does it effect the limit of Logic's assignable virtual memory?
    Reply
  • Ben
    Posts: 113
    Joined: Nov 13th, 2008, 11:23
    Re: Memory Nightmare
    Also, I was just experimenting with adding Kontakt and removing it continuously. Every time you add it and remove it, there's a 10MB!! added to your system real memory. Why oh why? is it undo data?
    Reply
  • Rounik Admin
    Posts: 8713
    Joined: Dec 16th, 2006, 08:13
    Re: Memory Nightmare
    Hi Ben, Indeed you're correct Logic 9 is not 64bit yet... However, the EXS24 can utilise more than 4 GB of ram I believe. At least it's ram memory management is not included within Logic's allocation. Cheers Rounik
    Reply
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