macProVideo.com
Forums
  • David T
    Posts: 85
    Joined: Nov 14th, 2007, 02:57
    Poser - best way to construct this click track for the players
    Here's a musical conundrum... I've been asked to do a full midi orchestration with Vienna Symphonic sounds of Mi Mancherai - the Josh Groban song from Il Postino. It's really free in places - so much so that although you could construct a tempo track via beat mapping, I don't know how anyone would play musically to it in the studio! Then the operatic tenor and his cellist (who want to record their parts live over it in a separate studio) have asked me the best way for us to get around the issue of free tempo in this instance. My best suggestion so far was this... 1. I create a tempo track. 2.I change the subdivision to 8 rather than 16 and then put the metronome on with bar beat and subdivision, which allows the conducting of rubato to a click, Now they have said - if it works.. "you conduct us in the studio - we won't listen to the click - you listen to it and we'll watch you - but even trying it here, it's still pretty challenging. Can anyone think of a better solution? Take a really free track and get live players to play over it whilst still keeping in time when there are silences and long pauses... Any ideas? Thanks all! David T
    Reply
  • JamieInNC
    Posts: 186
    Joined: Nov 16th, 2009, 01:04
    Re: Poser - best way to construct ...
    David, This is probably why classically-inspired music in the style of the Romantic period, complete with rubato and other flexible time devices, are best left to live performers with a conductor. However, it seems that your initial tactic would be great. Considering there is such freedom in the length and flow of the phrasing, the only way I can see this working is if your performers and yourself have worked with the recording on their own by listening to it several times and individually familiarizing themselves with the overall flow, thereby getting used to the places where major lifts in the phrasing occur. Hence, when you all get together for a recording, the rehearsing has already taken place and the ensemble knows what to expect. Now, this is a rather controlling type atmosphere, and as a classical musician I can honestly say I wouldn't record a classical-style piece in this manner. It is VERY difficult to do and I always feel that there is no room for at-the-moment expression, which may affect your performers as well. Again, it requires all parties involved to be hyper-familiar with the base recording and to structure their practice around it. If they want to be conducted, then YOU really have to know the feel of that track, and where every single beat sits. I would actually, now that I think of it, put the click track on the 16th note in the tempo you choose, so that smaller time distances in the bar will help you zero in on the rubatos much faster. You would definitely know where those big beats would be if it were set up this way. It might be a real pain, but if the click track could have a different sound On THE BEAT than the sound of the sixteenths in between, that would be best. Hope this helps! Jamie
    Reply
  • David T
    Posts: 85
    Joined: Nov 14th, 2007, 02:57
    Re: Poser - best way to construct ...
    Thanks Jamie. I'm a classical performer too - and I know just how difficult this would be... I've performed and recorded concertos on recorder, oboe and as a singer - and did my first degree as a recorder player! The problem is they want to record this particular piece in a studio as an agent has asked for it - and they don't have the means to record a large enough string section live to do it justice - hence the MIDI. I'm concerned about overly controlling them via conducting - it could be VERY off putting in this environment to try and conduct rubato - but I think you are right. If they have practice loads to the track and my conducting is just giving a brief visual indication of beats rather than a blow by blow bar breakdown to them, it might be possible. I'm with you though.. goes against the grain. I'll try both a 16th and 8th subdivision - but again you are right that the tonality of the click may be an issue. I think... as always, practise is the key - but I'm spending a long time preparing the best click track i can - with tempo curves where possible so that the MIDI doesn't feel stilted when it's recorded. It'll certainly be a challenge. If anyone wants to hear the audio I'm going to work to - ie the original track.. just give me a shout. Actually - they've given me the original track and a recording of their performance of it live. I'm taking the orchestration from the Josh Groban version, and the timing from their version! David T
    Reply
  • JamieInNC
    Posts: 186
    Joined: Nov 16th, 2009, 01:04
    Re: Poser - best way to construct ...
    Very good, David! I would try the 16th note version first. The tempo of the performance, which I saw this morning after your first post, lends itself better to a smaller subdivision. I think the manipulation of the tempo within logic is going to be the most work-intensive portion of the job. You can always set a click track AFTER you have determined that the music itself sounds good. With my piano students, there is always that awkward sense of rubato that they don't understand until they provide themselves with a "spoken" click track of their own prior to trying it out with their fingers. For example, I have them count the subdivisions out loud, depending upon the tempo and general frequency of notes. If there are more 8ths than anything else, I have them count to eight in one bar to simulate how it will feel PHYSICALLY to perform the rubato. That way, it takes the pianistic difficulties out of the picture and they can concentrate on the timing and EXACTLY where they want to start the rubato. If they decide to start the rubato on the 6th note, then they'd count 1..2..3..4..5..6...7....8.... Notice how the evenness of the beginning is stretched at the end. Once they can easily "feel" this progression, then I tell them to match what they just did with their VOICE with their fingers, and voila! Success... I've never had a student yet who couldn't do that. That's why I'd suggest 16ths for your click track base. That way, you'll have a much easier time judging the beat structure and identifying what's going on with the BIG beats from the beat internals. I see lots of tempo animation curves for this. I'd definitely avoid the straight-line type and go for a more strident steepness at the ends of phrases where apropos. Hope this helps! Jamie
    Reply
  • JamieInNC
    Posts: 186
    Joined: Nov 16th, 2009, 01:04
    Re: Poser - best way to construct ...
    By the way, David... Do you know the Music Minus One series for solo instruments? This is basically what you are trying to do. I have the MMO version of the Rachmaninoff Third Piano Concerto, and it is tough to sync with the orchestra-only CD. All those areas where the piano plays and the orchestra is tacet are tough to judge. Sometimes I'm way off and other times it's right on. Your situation reminded me about those CD/Score publications... Jamie
    Reply
  • David T
    Posts: 85
    Joined: Nov 14th, 2007, 02:57
    Re: Poser - best way to construct ...
    Thanks Jamie. Some good suggestions. I've created the tempo curves now and my tempo track looks like the skyscrapers in the opening credits of sex and the city - only with more curves! We have decided on me conducting them - I'll hear the click, they'll work to audio and conductor with no click and I'll try and give them only necessary downbeats and nothing else - as little interference as possible! The idea of speaking it is a good one - they are both professional musicians, I'm sure they'll get it quickly. Thanks again! David
    Reply
  • David T
    Posts: 85
    Joined: Nov 14th, 2007, 02:57
    Re: Poser - best way to construct ...
    ha - yes i know MMO VERY well - used it many times... particularly for recorder and oboe concertos! It's challenging like this... in the studio we will have the advantage that there is a click track and that the conductor can follow it. Maybe we have a new outlet of MIDI MMO versions.... a new business maybe? :-)
    Reply
You must be logged in to post a reply
Recent Threads
Recent Posts
Feedback
Course Advisor
Don't Know Where To Start?
Ask A Course Advisor
Ask Us!
Copy the link below and paste it into an email, forum, or Facebook to share this with your friends.
Make money when you share our links
Become a macProVideo.com Affiliate!
The current affiliate rate is: 50%
Classes Start Next Week!
Live 8-week Online Certification Classes for: